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Sand Dunes

Law of One series

Episode 3   25 April 2022

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The energy of money

Virginia Robin

Geraldine Johns-Putra


The Law of One: The energetic dynamic of moneyG Johns-Putra & V Robin
00:00 / 1:00:11


Episode 3: The energy of money


In this ten part series, two lawyers come together to explore what it could look like if the law as we know it shifted toward a more unified Law of One in our near future.


In this third episode, our two Lawyers, Virginia Robin and Geraldine Johns-Putra consider approaching our engagement with money from an energetic perspective, and its relationship with our current systems.


Show notes





Virginia, co-founder of Lawyers for Love, defies labels but is best recognised as being a lawyer, modern shaman, author and TEDx’er. Lawyers for Love offers a unique, alternate dispute resolution platform that supports the discovery of our authentic selves, by using existing conflict as a catalyst to do so.


Geraldine is a practicing lawyer with her own firm specialising in governance, the impact economy and business & human rights. Her New Earth lawyer podcast features conversations with lawyers who are changing the practice of law to change the world.


Virginia believes that by replacing our existing legal system with one that is more compassionate and validating and most of all, directed by the more highly conscious state of love, we will create a more optimal society.


Geraldine advises clients who are currently engaged in positive transformation of their own businesses, the wider economy, the environment and communities. She sees a world already changing for the better and the law and lawyers adapting in the right direction.

Show notes:

  • [0:01] We share our individual stories of our relationship to money, from our childhoods and through adulthood. Almost everyone has a strong energetic attachment to money. 

  • [9:26] Collectively, we are taking the next step by working through our fear-based associations with money. We are learning to see money as energy.

  • [18:43] The mainstream messaging around money challenges us, so we would do well to switch off from external messaging and focus on our own personal value.

  • [22:31] We have fears around having enough money for the future and as a collective it keeps us stagnant and prevents money from being consciously invested in meaningful projects.

  • [27:58] Philanthropy often comes with strings attached - if we have excess money to give away we should do so out of love and with intent.

  • [33:12] The value of money should incorporate a love-based element, such as the impact it has on the planet and people, This would extend to investment returns.

  • [41:09] A systemic change is underway as young people switch to impact investing and wish to earn their money from working for companies that care.

  • [48:58] A reflection of the awakening is that people are beginning to think about how the things they buy have real repercussions on others such as workers in the supply chain and the planet.

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Show notes


Virginia  0:01  
Well, hello, everyone, and welcome back to Two Lawyers talking the Law of One. My name is Virginia Robin, I am a modern shaman and lawyer and together with lawyer, Geraldine Johns-Putra, we are discussing the Law of One and exploring what that might look like if the Law of One as we knew it shifted toward an applying of a more unifying Law of One into our systems today. This is a 10 part series in which we will see how the Law of One could look as a solution to various societal questions. And today, in this third episode, we're considering approaching our engagement with money from an energetic perspective and reflecting upon the relationship that money has with our societal systems. And for me, money has been, and I think for most people, money makes the world go round, we learn about money as children and what value we place on that. And for me, it is very much a case of money didn't grow on trees, and I think many people grew up with the idea that money is a scarcity. It has to be earned. And it's something that's out there separate from you. And that you have to go and get it and you have to earn it. It is you have to be valuable before you get it and it identifies you as success and all those sorts of things. Well, I don't see it like that anymore. But how about you, Geraldine? What was your experience with money growing up?


Geraldine  1:43  
I think I had a fairly, I would say typical, I mean what is typical, background when it came to money, so I didn't grow up in a disadvantaged household. I didn't grow up in a very abundant household either. So it was the messages I got growing up, were you know, money, like you said, money doesn't grow on trees, you know, you'd be careful, learn how to save. So I had parents who were very much into saving and building for the future. I had parents who invested in my education, which is, it's a little bit typical of my cultural background. I'm Malaysian by birth. And in my parents culture, it was very important to see their children become professionals, you know, get a good university degree, etc, etc. It's a very typical story. So money was, money wasn't an aim in itself. It was more about security. And money, it wasn't about hoarding lots of money, it was making sure that we didn't starve. And that was, that's the message I got growing up, that if you didn't get a solid, secure education and job that you then would be out on the street and that was my parents greatest worry, coming from, they were coming from a place of love. So that's what I associate money with. And I still, you know, it's still a root issue. It's still very much a survival issue. But it's coming at it perhaps not from experiencing a lot of lack, but from experiences, from being told that it was an integral part of life.


Virginia  3:37  
Yeah, I think that's it, isn't it? Is that this is the way it's always been. don't question that. You need to follow this set of rules, it worked for us, therefore, it'll work for you. For me, yes, there was no, my upbringing was probably a little bit more, less prosperous. And yeah, everyone had things. So of course, I thought, oh, everyone gets love when they have things. So I want the things too, all my friends had shiny things, and I didn't have those things. And so that's what I strived for. I thought, these kids have got love, they've got everything, they've got all their friends because of the things. And so that's when I grew up and I thought, well, I can't follow traditional paths, I have to sort of go and earn money to get things so then people will love me, you know, I'll have the things too. And I think there's a lot of that still in society, I believe.


Geraldine  4:33  
Yeah, there's that attachment. You know, I went through this phase. My parents gave me this messaging about ,you know, security and a steady rise. And then I went through a phase that was a rebellion against them, but not a classic rebellion of I'm going to take a job that you're not happy with, or I'm going walk away from this great steady career, what it was, was that I began to use money to fill a hole. Because what had happened was that my parents, bless them, you know, they wanted the best for me, but in instilling in me that I had to follow certain path, I went down that path, basically, for them, not for me, even though I thought I wanted it. And so there was a void, and I filled that void by spending a lot of money. My reaction was, I'm making money, now I get to spend it, and show the world and myself that I am, quote unquote, successful. And so I went the other way, and my parents didn't instil this in me, they would have preferred that I saved all of my money. But I was spending it to show myself to say, hey, you know, I've got all of these things now. It means I'm happy. So I got on this vicious cycle of earning spending, earning spending, earning spending and just kind of ultra consumerism, which is another... we're touching on many, many different stories around money in this conversation, you can just, if anyone has a conversation around money, and what it means to them, you'll find, you know, we could probably have dozens of different narratives around money and approaches to money. And that's why it's so interesting, when, like a couple might get together, they'll find that they have these different approaches to money and digging into it will actually lead to reasons for say whatever conflict that they might be having in their lives. People have multiple approaches to money because money is so embedded in our needs, our dreams, our goals, it's intertwined in the human psyche.


Virginia  6:58  
Yeah, from that point of view, I believe, too, that it's a got a representation of love about it. It's, money equals love, value, you are valued and valuable, because you attract, you can attract money. But so I went through all that as well, you know, I was able to buy all the shiny things for myself. And when I figured out well, there's only so many shiny things I can have. And it's still not doing what I thought it would do. So it's like, yeah, I've got all the shiny, do I have love now, do I feel satisfied, because from my point of view, the idea of love is a sense of peace and satisfaction. But we see people upgrading to the new thing, upgrading, upgrading, moving on, always reaching out for the next thing that will give them what they feel will be the love or their satisfaction, or everyone will say, right, I've got there now, I've reached it. I've got to where I'm supposed to be. But of course, when you when you have a goal to get to a place, when you get there, you look around and think, oh, this isn't it. And so that was me, you know, how many pairs of shoes could I have? How many you know, my nice car and my beautiful home. I had a Ferrari. I had all the cars I had everything that you could possibly want in life until one day I got to that idea, no, this isn't, it the law practice that you know, a partner and a practice that, everything the status, the whole works, I could buy jewellery or anything, then what is it? What does that mean to me. And I believe that my journey had to come from a place where I didn't have much or the shiny things to find out that the shiny thing didn't have value at all. And so I questioned that one day, I looked around, I just if I let all of this go, you know, it was that understanding of now just letting the idea of all this go, this isn't where it's at, there's got to be something else. And that was a turning point for me understanding what that meant.


Geraldine  9:06  
Yeah, this is actually, what you're talking about is it mirrors the path for the collective I believe. So we're going to have to actually start to separate... that's Rodney expressing himself...


Virginia  9:25  
Hi Rodney.


Geraldine  9:26  
We're going to have start separating our deep emotional attachment to money. You know, yes, we all have individual stories around money, but we're going to have to stop associating, you know, our creating conflict out of money, seeing money as a need, attaching different stories to money, and begin to tell a different story collectively about money. Because this is the way forward. I mean, we've built a society that, quote unquote, needs money. And it's kind of filling a collective void, right, just like I was filling a void, and you were filling a void. And then when you realise that money wasn't really deeply, wasn't permanently filling that void, that you had to fill it with something else, which was love. When we as a society collectively understand that we need to fill our voids with love, and not money, and not the things that we buy with money, then we will take the next leap forward. And that to me, is this the story of where we are now.


Virginia  10:44  
Yeah, I agree. But it took me to see, look at everything, as I do now from an energetic perspective. So when I saw that money, too, is just an energy exchange for things and when you're feeling enough, that you tend to have enough. It's again, that idea of energy being frequency and flow, so you're in the flow with money. You know, some of us hoard money, we sort of bank it up and stockpile it and anything like that becomes stagnant and putrefies in effect, when you're looking at things from an energetic perspective. So money isn't necessary, but when we see it as an energy, and it has a flow about it, then it can go to where it's needed. And if I need some, and this is really how I've lived my life, from that point where I let go of this idea of other things are going to make me get the love that I want the satisfaction, the beauty in my life, those things aren't the beauty, the beauty comes from my satisfaction. When I understood that it was the ability to then say, okay, what do I actually need? What do I need in my life? Well, I just need enough. And that's a scary idea. Because people think, well, yeah, if I save my money, then there'll be enough behind me in case something happens. But in case what happens? We can't predict these futures. And my experience has been when I asked for, can I just have enough to for the next step? And when I have worked at that way, it's been really quite miraculous how the money will flow to me exactly. So I can, I think we talked about this Geraldine, money to me is elastic. So for example, recently, I went through a family law matter, and I just really asked, can I get enough out of this? Not what I deserve, or what I need, which represented the love to me, you know, that's what a lot of people go and fight over money to say, it represents my worth. But it doesn't actually. Thanks, Trevor. Trevor, from Brisbane, is really enjoying this. Thanks, Trevor. And when the money represents my worth to me, in a family law matter, then I'm going to fight for more, because I think, well, you've got what's worth something to me. But no, that's not true. I just asked for enough. And when I got out of it, what is enough, even though perhaps in the family law system, that wasn't the balance, it was sufficient for me then to move on and get exactly what else I needed. It's then the right thing came along for the right price, and all those things kept flowing into my reality that was right for me, not for somebody else, or what society thinks. So this is the important change in how we, how I approach money now, as I say, I always have enough for what I need.


Geraldine  13:31  
Yes, and what you're touching on is trust, right? So the association that so many of us have with money is some kind of fear, it's a fear of not having enough, or sometimes actually, it can be a fear of having the money, and what it means to have the money. You know, it's that scarcity mindset of you know, I'm not used to having money. So as soon as I get money, I need to somehow get rid of it, which is why some people actually find that they, even if they land in a situation where they have a lot of money, they win Tattslotto or something, they end up losing it. Why because they have this idea, deep seated idea that they don't, they shouldn't have money or they don't deserve money. You also get it with artists who feel like they shouldn't be associating their output, their creative output, with the grubbiness of money. I've been through a version of it myself, where I have had difficulty charging people for work. Because I feel like it, the work that I do that is pro bono is somehow more noble. And as soon as I put a price tag on it, then it changes the relationship. So there's so much fear around money and actually what that means is that anyone who controls money controls us. 


Virginia  15:07  


Geraldine  15:08  
And that is another story of money that we need to move out of. Because as soon as we have trust that there's always going to be money, that there's abundance, which is what all of this, you know, abundance thinking and Law of Attraction, which is what our journey as a collective was leading us to, even though we're now moving beyond that kind of materialistic I need, I need the big car, I need the big house, we're moving beyond it. But there was an important part of our journey, to go through that whole understanding of the Law of Attraction, because we need to have that trust so that we can move beyond the basically the Matrix, you know, where we're stuck in jobs we hate, because we think I need to make the money.


Virginia  15:54  
And that's, basically that's prostituting yourself to say, yeah, I'll sell my soul for some money. 


Geraldine  16:01  
Yeah, exactly. And the great thing about the lessons of the law of abundance, and the Law of Attraction is that I went through it also, I had a phase where I left the job. And for a year and a half, I somehow, somehow made money. And that was a big lesson for me, because the second time around, when I decided I needed to leave the job that I was with, I had some lessons and I also had in the back of my mind, I got through that then, I can get through this, you know, I'll never starve basically. And I think collectively, we're going through that same realisation that it is possible, it is possible to step out of the Matrix, it's possible to design the life that we love, not sitting there and imagining the $10 million paycheck or whatever it is, but sitting down and imagining, you know, just deep seated alignment and joy. And that's, that's really important as a collective, I think, to move away from.


Virginia  17:06  
That, yeah, the deep seated alignment, it is, if I feel satisfied, then I animate everything that's satisfying. To me, this is an abundant universe. If you have the feeling of satisfaction, you get satisfaction. But if you get a feeling of scarcity in your body, what do you get, scarcity. I see there isn't enough. So it's really the feeling body. And this is what I'm always saying now is that, because feeling it all an energy. If you're feeling like you're in the place where you want to be, then you are. You know, it seems self evident. But if you see something is bad, it is bad. That is your life, it will be bad, because you're seeing it that way. And it's the same what you're saying before about, for example, the spiritual community, people are afraid to charge decent money for their services. And they're offering brilliant services because they say, well, it's not spiritual. Well, who said money is energy, All That Is is all that is, which includes money, like everything else is the value that you place upon it. So if as a child money caused your family to break apart or is the source of everything unhappy in your life, that's your work. That is your work to say money is neutral. Money is just a means of transacting, when I can feel abundant or be abundant by say, just, I'm going somewhere and someone says, oh, here's a whole lot of oranges. How, you know, would you like those? Oh, yes, thank you, you know, that is an abundance as well. We have just given this identity to money, that the collective keeps reinforcing.


Geraldine  18:43  
Yeah, absolutely. This is the, one of the challenges, right, of moving into a space of clearing all of our concerns about money. It's the reinforcement around us that we have continually, continually remind ourselves that we are entirely capable of creating our own abundance or creating, as you said earlier, trusting that we can get what we need when we need it. So don't ask for more than you need, ask for what you reasonably need and go forward. But everyone around us, and we're a couple of lawyers, so we can relate this to law. Our lawyers will advise us, look you're entitled to x sum so go for x sum and in the course of getting x sum, you, we will churn through feelings of scarcity, fear, conflict, creating lots of ripples of negative energy that have whatever consequences rather than trusting that we just need that much. And so yes, I totally agree this is why I think it's important to as we're moving through these individual journeys to connect, you know, like you and I connect, connect with people around us who are going to reinforce, that we can trust, trust ourselves and trust the universe. And switch off, switch off from you know, like, I'm sure you've turned off your TV long ago, switch off from the ads, switch off from that saying you need this to make you happy. Totally switch off from that. Yeah, we are moving there. But you're right, the mainstream is still very much about money, money, money.


Virginia  20:41  
Yeah, that is the security idea. And you know, we even talk about that with the law. I mean, the law, from my point of view anyway, says that, it's going to give you security, you know, there's always an outcome you'll always see, it's certain, but it's not certain, nothing is certain. Holding money doesn't mean it's certain, you're still not going to necessarily, as you just mentioned before winning Tattslotto, people are, if I only win this lottery, everything would be different. No, you take yourself with you, wherever you go, your energy, your energetic makeup is with you, and will respond to that situation accordingly. So suddenly, yeah, you have the guilt around the money, you need to divest it, or all your friends don't like you anymore because you have money. So you start buying them things to show, oh, look, I'm wealthy, I can do all that. And then suddenly, you have less than what you started with. Because that is your pattern of attraction. And the idea of, I just want a comfortable life that's certain, or I've got to give this money to my children, I've got to work really hard so that I've got something to leave them. Why? Let them earn their own money, let them stand on their own two feet, let them live, let them have their experiences. I mean, money is an experience, it's all the experiences as well that surround that. But if you're trying to keep other people safe, you're trying to keep yourself safe, that is such a, it is a negative fear based energy, I need to keep myself safe, rather than I am safe. If you feel that shift in your own energetic field right now by saying I'm unsafe to I am safe, it feels different. And so you attract, you literally attract that to you. And that's really the way I've been living. It is a fun way. You know, you get curveballs now and then. But it is a journey.


Geraldine  22:31  
Yeah, that's, it's lively, isn't it? It keeps you centred, it keeps you in the now, it keeps you in the now, which is really important. And I think that, you know, we're talking about the messages that come from mainstream, talking about the what the mainstream tells us... sorry, I've got traffic around me... what the mainstream tells us, we've got to think also about how we're attached, almost like an umbilical cord, to the fear based structures around money. And I'm thinking really, of this whole idea of investing for the future. And you talked about that. You've got to leave money for your children. We live in a society that focuses on pooling great amounts of money together. And the idea, I'm talking about the funds industry, pension funds, superannuation, we, what happens is that we feel like we have to hold that money so that we can retire safely and happily. That actually if that's our mindset is creating stagnation of the energy of money. And I'm not saying pull all of your money out of your pension fund and go spend it happily. But I'm saying if you're constantly kind of checking your balance, or you're trying to work out how much you're going to retire with,  that's fear based and it's also creating the hoarding mentality. We've got to actually collectively as a society stop seeing money as a thing. And start seeing money, we've touched on this, as a flow. We've got to stop seeing money as the thing to hoard. We've got to stop making, trying to make money out of money, because that means that we're saying money is a commodity in itself. It's not. We use money to get things. 


So as we move into the future, we're going to have to start to, if we're going to, if we do have excess money, which is like excess energy to do things right If we're going to have to start to be more clever with the money that we, that we do end up pooling together. So let's say you and I had a common intention to build something that would take money, I see it as a positive step, that you take your excess money, and I take my excess money, and we decide to invest it in, let's say, a third person's enterprise or business, right? And what we then do with our money is we don't just put it into a pension fund, and want x percent growth a year, we care about what that third person is doing. We really look into, oh, okay, you're growing this enterprise, that's going to create beautiful art, you know, you're an artist, you appreciate your art brings happiness to people. And so you and I care about the money that we're putting in and that money represents our energy, there's a bit of us that goes into that money. And then that money creates art and creates happiness, etc, etc, etc. Rather than pooling our money, putting it, you know, saying I need to be safe, I want to retire when I'm 60 and I need that, so much in the bank. And then what happens to that money that we're pooling with lots of other people, it goes in, it buys a big building in the CBD somewhere, or invests in a bunch of businesses that are doing all sorts of things, who knows, who cares. 

We're actually starting to see the rise of consciousness in people about what their money is doing, which is part of this awakening. People are starting to care, people are starting to choose superannuation funds that don't invest in tobacco or weapons or whatever they don't agree with. And they're saying, because that's not building what I want. And the next step is for people to begin to, on a mass level, invest their money into positive things, not just negatively cut out things, but then choose, we call it impact investments, right? Not just negatively screen things out, but impact invest. And then you know, from there, it's going to to grow into a closer association, like the one I was talking to you about, you know, where you and I actually know the person who's creating the art. And the closer we get towards a place where the money represents energy to do good things, the better off we will be as a society, the further away we will get from that control, the money representing control over it.


Virginia  27:58  
Yeah, absolutely. And I've seen, to extend on that, I've seen, for example, philanthropists, engaged, putting money into research projects, but it's still it's like love, it's conditional love. And it says, okay, I want research, I want you to research this, but I want the results to look like this. So that I can then make more money so I can sell a product or something like that. This is, it is what you're saying is the energy that goes into the delivery of the money will be the outcome as David Hawkins says it's, you know, the, the level of consciousness of the person engaging or giving will be the result of the level of consciousness that comes out the other end. And I think that's why we, perhaps would be really valuable for us to have a look at. If you're receiving money from any investors and that kind of thing, what is their level of consciousness? What are they expecting from you? Is it conditional love, they're giving you like our parents did, you know be good, and I will love you. But you got to do it my way. I've got to have control over this, rather than collaborating and saying, well, let's genuinely see where it flows from here. Like I have, I have money that's coming in with an energy of love. I'm bringing, I'm giving it to you with love. For years, I wouldn't be investing in things that I didn't see as having a potential for love. So that's the way I see it. It's just a whole different if you have the excess money to do that with.


Geraldine  29:26  
You're touching on two really important things there that are quite close to my heart. One is this whole idea of philanthropy. Philanthropy you have correctly identified is rarely just giving. It's giving with strings attached. So, and we motivate it with tax deductions and so on so forth. We motivate it with influence. You know, you give money, you will get influence, not just if you have money to invest.


Virginia  30:02  
I will just stand here with the novelty cheque. And we're looking like we're, oh, look, I'm just generously giving this money, people very rarely do it anonymously and just for the good of all do they?

Geraldine  30:12  
Exactly as well, they get positions on boards, they get a say in what that organisation that they give to might be doing. They get invited to speak on something, and so on and so forth. So yeah, philanthropy isn't really out of the goodness of your heart, right? And the others, not always, there are many people who just give freely, but they're equally others who give with that mindset. And the other thing that you touched on that I really feel very strongly about is, philanthropy is like the way to ease your guilt, it's like being a complete rascal six days a week, and then going to church. And I'll make money, whichever way I want. And then I'll give some of it away, and I'll feel better. And that's that we've had different sectors of our economy for a long time. So we have the public sector, then we have the private sector, and then we have the not-for-profit sector. And those things all do different things, you know. If you want to feed the hungry, that's not the business of a big corporate, that's the business of charity. So that big corporates get to do what they like six days a week, and then they'll give some money to the charity, and they'll feel good. That's the equivalent, like I said, of going to church and confessing your sins. So what we, what is, and this is getting into a bigger conversation but it's associated with money, it's that view that all things that create money, should be doing so for the betterment of the planet and humankind. That comes first. You know, and if you want to be an enterprise, if you want to be a business, and you want to be sustainable, you need to be helping the planet and helping others in a way that makes money, not making money and then fixing the stuff that is a consequence of making money. So this is purpose before profit. It makes no sense to have large companies doing whatever they like, and then having to have the excess money mop it up. Why create the mess in the first place? Everybody should be working for the betterment of the planet and humankind, no mess. 


You know, we're just growing, evolving all the time.  And what does money do? Money flows around, helping that, money flows around, it takes resources. And this is why money is so helpful, you know, money, we haven't yet found a way of measuring value yet as a society. 


Virginia  33:10  
Other than money. 


Geraldine  33:10  
Other than money. 


Virginia  33:11  
I think love has a value.


Geraldine  33:12  
You know money helps us allocate. Yeah. My idea about money is that it needs to, it needs to integrate that love element into it. So I have an idea about money that will help businesses allocate it differently. But right now, what does money do, money helps us measure, money helps us choose, money helps us reward people. So money is super useful. You know, we know these functions of money. It's a store of value. It's a unit of accounting. It's a medium of exchange. It allows all of those things. So money has, although it's got a history of control attached to it, it has all these very useful things that it does. And so if we change the whole structure of how money is made, we would go a long way towards towards creating a society where money doesn't cause harm. Money is only used for positive. And my idea around money is that every dollar that we spend right now, it only incorporates in it the cost that's on the books, so if I earned something, you know, through my legal practice, that profit reflects the expenses of my practice. And the expenses of my practice are things like the electricity, the computer, the website, the server fees, whatever, and those things don't properly incorporate or integrate into them the impact. So I could get my electricity from anywhere. Right now I could get it from a dirty coal plant, although that's reducing, or I could get it from a solar panel on the top of my roof. But you know, the dollar that I earn from my practice doesn't reflect those choices. So the cleaner, better for the planet avenue would be to get it from the solar energy. So my idea around money is that it should reflect the impact. So if I earn, I might earn $100. But that $100 is is kind of agnostic towards the, what we call externalities of the money that's been spent on the expenses. If we brought externalities into our accounting methods, we would begin to see the true cost of things. And it's actually, there has been work done around the true cost of certain businesses, bringing on board externalities, and many businesses, like mining companies, for example that we look at, wouldn't actually be truly profitable if they brought all of their externalities onto their books. So my idea would be that eventually we're a clever bunch. I mean, we're clever species, actually, we can figure out a lot of things...


Virginia  36:38  
From horse and cart to Tesla. So you know, I think we're doing pretty good.


Geraldine  36:41  
Yeah, we could figure out a way to, to make every dollar impact adjusted. So that I could, I could then understand if I invested my money into, going back to our story about investing, if I invested my money into x company, I would, you know, right now, I'd get back like $1,000. But it could be $1,000 dirty dollars who knows, right? I might be investing in a blood diamond company. And then I could spend that money and get $1,000, I could spend that money into a green company or, you know, a B Corporation and I get back $1,000. And that $1,000 is clean, shall we say, or green. And so in the future, I could see if we impact adjusted that, I would understand that if I invested in the blood diamond company, I wouldn't be getting any impact adjusted dollars back at all. That would be a loss-making company. But if I invested in the B Corporation, my $1,000 might actually have a purchasing power of $100,000. So that's what I think we could eventually get to. It's a systemic change, I would love to see it. But you know, just imagine, because then we would...  We will eventually, Virginia, and I think this is where you would go to, we will eventually not even need money at all right? But we're still here in this 3D space, physical space, playing with each other, making things and producing things and having the fun of running businesses. Running a business is fun. 


Virginia  38:31  
Yeah. Exactly.


Geraldine  38:32  
So money helps us do all of that. Eventually, we'll move beyond that. But while we're here, you know, let's, let's make money more meaningful. You know, let's make money reflect us better.


Virginia  38:45  
Reflect us. That's it. And I think what, yeah, I love it exactly what you're saying. But what's happening is people can't externalise the value of the company, for example. So you know, I want you to think that I'm successful. So I will buy the most expensive handbag, and I'll walk down the street with that handbag. So you think oh, she's got money. But if I'm investing in a green corporation, no one can see that. And until we change the way we where we place our value, what's cool. As I said, once upon a time smoking was really cool, you know, and I was a smoker, I loved smoking, and I couldn't be without it and I'd go to a party and don't tell me I can't smoke. But there was something about the non smokers eventually I was, oh, you know, I think I want to be over there. I want to do what they're doing. And you know, at the moment, they're pretty uncool. But if we're making that the cool way to be, it's just a way of being, changing that how I feel about me when I'm doing this, and there's less value placed on me walking down the street with the most expensive handbag. You know, even and I feel a little bit but that is shifting. 


Geraldine  39:59  
Oh yeah.


Virginia  39:59  
Like external realising that wealth is less attractive, it's like why are you doing that? You know, what do you need that for? I mean, there's nothing as beautiful things. As art. There's a lot of art in many beautiful things, but the excess, you know, how many handbags do you need? Once upon a time, I needed a lot. But now I even struggle to use one. So I think isn't it funny how I've shifted my way of being about all of that. So, yeah, how do I want to impact the planet now? How can I help others with my excess money, if I have it, and I will have enough to help others or be involved with you know, even if it's just being involved in something that is evolving into this space, is really valuable to me now. It makes, it fills me up, the handbag doesn't fill me up anymore. But being involved with those creators. The art as you've just said, Geraldine is my thing. But it doesn't matter who it is, it's creating we all creators, in some way, has great value to me, I think yeah, that systemic change that you're talking about is shifting what we place value on as humans right now it's money. But I see that, I see it shifting.


Geraldine  41:09  
I totally agree. And this is where I like to look around and see the positives. So the work that I do, I see it, so I work in impact investing, I represent companies that are seeking to make an impact as well as seeking financing. And the message that they're getting very strongly is that there is a lot of investment out there, or investors out there who are keen to make pure impact, not the sort of impact we were talking about earlier, which is the conditional impact. There is a lot of, there are a lot of new investors, the Canva company, the co-founders are an example, Atlassian, the co-founders, they are big example. They are young people, the youth are really pushing this, young people who just care about the planet full stop, care about people full stop.

Virginia  42:08  
They do. And there is a big difference in the next generation. I see that.

Geraldine  42:13  
Yeah, and the powerful thing about them is that they're beginning to understand or they already understand, you know, I think we're the ones who are beginning to do things, I think that they fundamentally understand. 


Virginia  42:23  
They've done it, they're doing it.


Geraldine  42:24  
They just get it. They understand things like it's systemic, it's structural. So the Atlassian co-founders do things, for example, this is touching on legal, they do things like when they invest in companies, they have a standard term sheet, that is just, they consider it fair. And I have had a look at their standard term sheet, I think it is fair, in terms of what warranties that they require from the company that they're investing in. You know, in a standard sale of business agreement, if I am buying your company, I want a full set of warranties, I want you to stand behind, saying that, you know, my books are fair and true, and I have so many customers, I'm delivering this to you, everything is clean, there's no litigation, a full set of warranties. And if any of that's untrue, I'm going to have to pay you back some money. That's a standard business, sale of business agreement. The Atlassian founders, when they do business, they have a, just because they're buying a company doesn't mean that they exert their bargaining power on to the other side, they issue a fair term sheet that says we understand where you're coming from, we will only ask you for warranties around things that we really care about, not 10 pages of what our lawyers think we should ask for. And therefore, let's just get over the legal part. Let's not spend a month negotiating our agreement. Let's just you know, have a fair contract, get over it so that we can move on to our partnership and build something. So that's, so they are definitely seeing the interconnection of things. They understand there's no point spending money on a bunch of lawyers who are going to sit in a room and argue with each other and charge by the hour. 


Virginia  44:19  


Geraldine  44:20  
Money! We're going to get on to the things that matter. 


Virginia  44:24  
Yeah. And that's also what's happening say in the legal systems is that unfortunately, there are many ways out there that prolong litigations, for the sake of earning money. It's not in the highest or most benefit, the greatest benefit for all concerned in the litigation. It is for their own pocket to please their shareholders. And that was apparent to me very recently, and I thought, gee, this is shocking. A lot of people don't realise that is the reality. There are many beautiful lawyers out there but I'm just saying there's a lot that perpetuates your litigation for the sake of earning money out of you. And I mean, maybe you need to learn that too. You know, we're all in a situation for a reason. But there is exactly what you're saying. So what are we in here for? Are we here to make money? And this is the other thing about the money. What are we here to do, to create, we are all creators, we're creating all the time, you just don't realise what you're creating. Half of the population don't realise what they're creating, but you are creating something all the time. But if you're here with a vision to create something beautiful loving, the money follows you about. The abundance happens after that. So it's just what is the goal here, if you go out with a goal to make money, why because I need money, no, you don't need to make money, you need to create something beautiful, something that's beneficial, something to enhance the planet, something to evolve us.


Geraldine  45:54  
And what's so interesting about, going back to the youth, and going back to that shift that you are identifying is that there are a lot of young people, I'm going to be generalising here, young people who say, I do not want to earn my money in a certain way, or be associated with an employer who has these certain values. And they're the ones who are insisting on change, and taking risks, you know, the sort of risks that I was saying that my parents wouldn't want me to take. They're going to work for start-ups, they're going to work for not for profits, they want to align their lives with meaningful impact. And so they're walking away from money in the traditional sense. And so I actually think that what we're getting here is people being motivated, you know, they may not be, they may not be completely understanding why they are being motivated, you know, they may not associate it with higher consciousness or spiritual awakening. But they know fundamentally, that they feel better when they're doing something good. And they have that immediate empathy or service to self mentality. That is where we are shifting to. And you're quite right, you, as you said earlier, another point I want to make is that, yeah, we're all here for the experience. But I think more and more people are getting kind of tired of the experience of stress, and working under conditions that are stressful and damaging the planet. I mean, we've had that, we've had that for as long as any of us can remember, we really want another experience now. We are more than ready.


Virginia  47:55  
I had this beautiful young woman speak to me the other day, and she said that she had a part time job in a certain store, which I won't mention, but she said, as as a staff member, she had to sell. And if she didn't make that sale, she had to write a report. So it's like do anything to make the sale. It's like, that's ugly. And to me, it's fear based, you're not going to make your targets, you're not going to do this. And I think many lawyers were in that space to make targets, you know, your key performance indicators. You've got to live up to a standard that's almost impossible most of the time and they all know that so that you are under stress to keep working hard and achieve achieve achieve, but to get the money too, it's like the carrot's up there, the golden ring's there, but actually no, the golden ring's right here. How do I feel right now? What am I doing that feels good to me? That is the place to be, that's where you animate the good feeling thing, the abundance for you right now rather than the fear of it's out there somewhere. And I'll tell you what, if you keep chasing it, you'll never get it.


Geraldine  48:58  
And what's so interesting about what's happening in our society is that different parts of our society, even the legal and regulatory side, are recognising that motivating people with money in their jobs has terrible side effects. And so we're actually getting to a point where, where we're saying we don't want to motivate them with money because we don't want those side effects. Case in point. Case in point is the banking sector. So remember the Royal Commission that we had a few years ago where people were being motivated to perform in a certain way. They were actually then causing risk to the companies, to the banks that they were working for, financial institutions because they were behaving in ways that were damaging to the customer, and damaging to the reputation of those institutions and to such an extent that the regulators began to take interest, right. So then we had this whole conversation around how you reward people. And we had this conversation around reputational risk and non financial risk, which is exactly what you're talking about, except it was expressed in terms that, you know, people were comfortable with in the mainstream, but it's exactly this. It's exactly that, that people should not be paid to create hardship for their customers. It took a very expensive Royal Commission for us to get to the very basic truth. And even though the... Justice Hayne, when he issued his report, he said there are just some basic things that businesses should know that, you know, don't lie, you know, be fair and reasonable, if you're going to make money out of a person, tell them how you're making that money, don't have a conflict of interest. All of these, don't engage in misleading or deceptive conduct. And he set out these very, very basic things. If you read them. You think, my God, an eight year old could tell you that.


Virginia  51:16  
Yeah, no, that's what I think. It's so simple. Why do we have to mislead someone to get them to buy? To me the idea of marketing something. Because yeah, look, we've all got a service or something we're offering. To me I even sat with this idea of marketing. And I thought, no, no, I'm not going out there saying I do this. And I do that. And if you don't do what I have to offer, you're going to miss out. Because that's basically, you know, wrinkle cream. Yeah. If you don't buy this, you're not going to look like you're 12 years old. And, you know, it's still full of misleading conduct. And I cannot believe we still are so gullible as a society to look at that. I think it was Amazon that said, their customers are quite stupid, really, because they just you can sell them anything. And I thought that's really appalling. But that's, when it's so obvious to me, when is that going to be obvious to everybody? I don't know. 


Geraldine  52:12  
Yeah, the awareness is starting. So what's interesting about, let's say, let's choose another product that is very popular these days with, especially with social media, and that's fast fashion. So there are some people getting addicted to fast fashion, oh, my goodness, this dress only costs five bucks. And then they go buy it, buy it and they don't care, or it doesn't fit properly or whatever, I'll just buy another dress, it costs whatever. 10 bucks. And they're not realising because it's cheap. And again, they're motivated by money. They're not realising what that actually means when they spend 10 bucks on a dress, they don't realise, and this is another area that I work in, they don't realise that all the way down the line, somebody's getting paid very little money and working in horrible conditions to make that dress for you. Now, we can go back to previous conversations where we said that might be a choice on the person, on the part of the person who's actually engaged in the sweatshop conditions. But you know, in a society that is trying to move towards improvement for everybody, why would you want to spend your money buying something that has been made by somebody in misery?


Virginia  53:24  
It's unbelievable. I did I see this, I went to I think it was at Christmas time, I went into some of these stores. We hadn't been in for a while. And I thought, oh, yuck. So there's clothes piled up just like an excess of gluttony. There was some idea of this ugliness to me, I thought, this is a reflection of us, look at us. And we're grabbing things, and it's a mess. So when will everyone just see that? And it's, you know, I buy things from cheaper stores, too, because I don't have to have an expensive label. There's nothing about that. But it just seems to me to be the yeah, keep pushing this at the consumer. Because yeah, that has no value. Really, none of it has any value. You just like, get it, throw it away, and it fills up the Earth. And when we appreciate, you see someone made this, time went into that. Where did the love come in? When did... can we just buy one beautiful shirt that will last us for a while and feel beautiful in it? You know, when will that happen? Can we change that? Can we give some value to that instead?


Geraldine  54:29  
It's totally happening though. I mean, I had a conversation with my sister a week ago where we were talking about op shopping. A few years ago, there's no way I would walk into a Vinnies. Oh no, poor people do that. But now it's not about being rich or poor. It's about why should I go and buy something when there's beautiful, we call them pre loved but there's beautiful existing... 

Virginia  54:58  


Geraldine  54:59  
Material and garments out there, right? 


Virginia  55:01  
It is, what do I want? I think people have forgotten that. What do you actually want? What do you want to look like? What do you, what's your style? Where's your authenticity? You don't have to keep looking like the woman on Instagram. It's exactly, they're selling you. They're tricking you. They're tricking you.


Geraldine  55:20  
So all of this awareness is totally happening to people. And it's, it's not tiny steps, I actually think we're starting to snowball. The only thing and we come back to this every time you and I talk, whether it's about money or family law, the only thing, no, it's not the only thing, but a very big thing, that's holding us back are the structures. You know so we need the banks that are going to be more about engaging in the flow, rather than trying to make money out of money. We need the laws that are going to be about motivating impactful business, rather than judging people, judging businesses by their bottom line, and so on and so forth.


Virginia  56:07  
But it does come from the change from the consumer. If I start saying I want something different, and so many, like the lawyers would shift the way they did law. If everyone said, no, I don't like what you're doing. I want you to do this, then oh, well, we'll accommodate you then. Okay, so it does take each of us. I also say, before we can reflect the change in the external, it's going to be for each of us to say yeah, look, you know, I don't place value on that anymore. I'd rather, yeah, go to Vinnies and get something recycled. That is individual, reflects me. And I feel good in that. And there's about me now, not about you. And what you tell me I want. I'm not that gullible anymore.


Geraldine  56:46  
Yeah. So there's a lot that we've covered. And I think that there are principles to live by. We all fall back into traps, because as you said, it's all messaging around us. But learning to trust, disassociating from the fear, messaging of money, making conscious decisions around how we spend our money, and how we invest our money, making conscious decisions around how we earn our money. All of that is going to bring us forward. And just you know, respecting the changes. Also, I think, celebrating the changes that we're seeing and just celebrating people like the conversation I had with my sister, if someone comes to me and says something like that, celebrate that, you know, say that's so wonderful what we're doing, make ourselves feel good for embracing and participating in the changes. 


Virginia  57:43  
Yeah, we all have a say. We all have a say, we just need to say it. We haven't been saying it. We just haven't been saying where we haven't been saying, look, I don't actually want to wear that garment. Or I don't want to do that. I don't want to have to have the latest handbag. It's just too much stress. That is stressful to me. 


Geraldine  58:00  
Yep. Yep. 


Virginia  58:01  
I'd rather I'd rather do something else. Yeah. 


Geraldine  58:03  
And think about the messaging. I mean, we're coming up on an election period right now in Australia. And you know, the messaging that comes to us is we need more jobs, we need more jobs, we need more jobs. We need to grow the economy. And understand that that's messaging being fed to us, which is part of this consumerist mindset. Why do we need to grow the economy? Actually, if I go to an op shop, and I buy something that's already used, that is not going to grow the economy as much as if I go and buy something completely new. Or someone gives me something, it doesn't grow the economy at all, because it doesn't get included in the way we measure growth of the economy. So we need to understand that integrated into all of the political messaging and the news media is growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, which is all about spending money that we don't need to spend.

Virginia  58:59  
Why aren't we doing personal growth? Why aren't we being taught to personally evolve? That would be ideal. But then what happens is they're divesting, is the divesting of power, decentralising power. And I don't think that's going to be endorsed by government. But that's another story. This topic of money is huge. So I think that's all I have to say today, as well, Geraldine. And I think we've nearly had been speaking for an hour or so that time goes so fast, because we have so much fun when we're talking about these things. But did you have anything else to add before we go?


Geraldine  59:33  
No. I've really enjoyed it. It actually did go really fast. And we touched on so many things. But yeah thank you so much. 


Virginia  59:42  
And next month, I think we're going to talk about is it crime? Yeah, the Law of One and yeah, that's just another diverse topic because it's all the same across the board. It's all energy, everybody. The way I see it, we're all connected. Yeah, we talk about flow, and we'll talk about crime next time. So thank you all for contributing today and joining us it's been great and we'll see you next month on Law of One. Bye now 


Geraldine  1:00:08  

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